Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Heterodork's avatar

I don't agree with your stance but upvotes for persistence I guess..!

The definition is the way it is because it runs across all sexual species, some of which do all sorts of interesting things including arbitrariness in sex development (eg temperature). But it's not necessary for sex across all species to be a natural kind with a single definition, it is remarkable that evolution is so consistent in maintaining the similarities through distinct lines of development.

Humans are easy and don't need the looser time-bound definition that you prefer, they are men or women or intersex throughout their lives. Unless you are not the same Steersman as you were in the womb?

Anyway just throwing that out there, no time to discuss it now.

Expand full comment
Jeff S.'s avatar

The definitions that you put forth is certainly accurate when being applied across across anisogamous species (including humans). You seem to greatly favor the first, and it does account for the handful of species that can undergo a differentiation into M or F after being born due to environmental factors. And that definition states "phenotype that produces" which can be interpreted to mean is currently capable of producing (which in that definition is probably the intention) or can be interpreted as will at some point be capable of.

I don't see the second reference providing a definition quite as narrow as the first, their definition reads: "in a system with two markedly different gamete sizes, we define females to be the sex that produces the larger gametes and vice-versa for males". Again this definition uses the term produces which could be taken in a literal sense to mean present tense, or could be taken (as I learned as a Zoology major in the 1970s) to mean will be able to, does, or did produce. We also learned that there were anatomical differences for the sexes of an anisogamous species that would correspond to being able to produce the associated gamete, and allow the physical aspects of reproduction to occur during the times of the organisms life it was reproductively active. Thus sex determination (or phenotype) of an individual was not limited (with rare exceptions) to the life stage of a individual, and would be predictive of the physical development of the individual.

Since humans are mammals, we are not one of those rare exceptions in that based on our sex observed at birth (or these days often observed in utero), we are born with the appropriate anatomy and physiological function to develop into reproductive maturity and produce the gametes associated with out sex. There are to be sure a very very small number of individuals that have disorders that will produce anomolies that will preclude them from being able to reproduce. And a small subset of these that will have ambiguity between gonads and other aspects of reproductive and genitalia.

I question legislatures spending time on this type of legislation, but I guess we may have come to this point. Writing legislation based on terminology such as anisogamous and phenotypes may have resonance with for someone focused on definitions in use by evolutionary biologists with a specialty in evolution of gametes, or someone focused on philosophical discussions that center on semantics. However, legislation meant to govern humans based on human characteristics is going to require language understandable by the general public in terms that they can relate to. So the language in this legislation does give an accurate description of the phenotype in humans (or any mammal) that produces large gametes. So I guess they could have included first the definition you like, but to make it useable, they would have had to include the language they did.

They did effectively account for the disorders I mention. I don't see any weaknesses that gender ideologs could leverage. And they are talking strictly about gender.

What are the real problems here? Or is it just that Wright endorsed this, and you seem to have a major bone to pick with him?

Expand full comment
9 more comments...

No posts